| Kathleen Kennedy/The Daily Cougar
For years, posthumous proxy baptism, or baptism for the deceased, has been a regular practice in the Church of Latter Day Saints. Originally, the practice was intended to soothe converts to the Mormon faith. They feared that their ancestors, who had died before the church was founded, would not be saved. Church founder Joseph Smith told his followers they could posthumously baptize those ancestors, for the opportunity to move to higher positions in the afterlife.
Any member of the Church of Latter Day Saints can perform a posthumous baptism, so as to spare past ancestors — including Holocaust victims.
Anne Frank has been posthumously baptized as a Mormon nine times. The Mormon establishment claims to have only discovered this practice in 1991, when they formally ordered members of the church to stop baptizing Holocaust victims. After another complaint in 1995, the Church removed hundreds of people from the lists of those posthumously baptized, and asked again that members refrain from the practice. They did not. Another complaint was issued in 2010 and ignored.
Last week, the issue came to a head. Mormons have posthumously baptized the parents of Holocaust survivor and activist Simon Wiesenthal at temples in Utah and Arizona. They have also added still-living Nobel Laureate and Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel to their list of those to be baptized — when he dies. Wiesel himself has been a vocal critic of the practice for many years and has asked Mormon presidential candidate Mitt Romney to speak out against it. Romney has been silent on Wiesel’s current request, but when asked in a 2007 interview with Newsweek if he had ever participated in posthumous baptism, Romney said that he had, but not recently.
Although Romney is a prominent Mormon figure, it is doubtful anyone would listen even if he did honor Wiesel’s request. The Church of Latter Day Saints has asked its members multiple times to stop baptizing anyone who is not an ancestor. If Mormons will not listen to the LDS establishment, why would they listen to Mitt Romney?
Many claim that the Church of Latter Day Saints has not done enough to educate Mormons about posthumous baptism, though it is surprising that someone would have to explain that it is disrespectful to claim deceased members of another religion as your own. Mormons may believe that they are helping to ensure a better position in the afterlife for those individuals, but the nature or existence of an afterlife is not known by anyone. We are entitled to our own beliefs in life, and those beliefs should be honored in our death as well.
To attempt to retroactively change the religion of Anne Frank is particularly nauseating. Members of other faiths have been targeted as well, though the Catholic Church believes that the posthumous baptisms have no authority and they probably have a point as far as the afterlife goes. In this life, it is still an insult to the legacy of those who lived according to their chosen faiths.
Religious freedom has been interpreted lately as the freedom to force one’s beliefs onto others, but the true spirit of the religious freedom is to practice your faith as you wish, while allowing others to do the same. Religious freedom is a two-way street. Members of the Mormon faith are entitled to their own beliefs about salvation and the afterlife, but they should respect others’ choice of faith in life and death.
Emily Brooks is an economics senior and may be reached at [email protected]
OK, first off:
No, Mormons do not believe that having more ordinances performed earns you more goodies in heaven. Unless you count God's approval at us caring about our ancestors.
Second:
Temple baptisms are not a baptism in the sense that they make the person a Mormon, or baptize them without their consent. The idea is you do the ordinance on behalf of a dead person and the ordinance is then OFFERED to the dead person. If they reject it (and many probably do) – then they aren't a Mormon. Period.
Pretty simple, isn't it?
No coercion. Just a free offering of the ordinance to those on the other side who want to accept it. And that is exactly how it is taught to Mormons from the time they are six years old, throughout their teenage years, and into adulthood. None of us think we're automatically "making more Mormons."
You've totally misrepresented this ordinance in our church.
And for the record – you don't have the right to tell dead people they CAN'T be Mormons if they want to either.
Well put.
I agree. And, one thing I've noticed, those who hate Mormons, almost always try to justify it by painting Mormons as "intolerant".
I’m thankful that there are so many understanding humans in the world, especially the wonderful Jewish people. Imagine if there were Jewish children who went to Mormon graves and, as an act of love and respect, offered some Jewish rites, perhaps reciting: “May she come to her place in peace," to help these beloved Mormons on their way to further happiness in the Jewish afterlife. And, imagine that some of these Mormons were among those thousands killed by mobs, torture, and exposure from being repeatedly driven from their homes by extermination order, cannons, rape, and so on….(and I know LDS sufferings are insignificant compared to Jewish sufferings but perhaps this is why so many Jews are compassionate towards Mormons).
And imagine someone “out to get” Jewish people was trying to blackmail Jewish leaders and went to Mormons and misleadingly presented the Jewish ritual in a most odious light.
Imagine that some Mormons were outraged at the acts which these Jewish people thought were acts of love (in real life Mormons would be honored that Jewish people would do anything to help them on their way, or to adopt them as Jews, Mormons seek to be adopted or believe they are of Ephraim).
And imagine that these upset Mormons told the Jewish people how they felt about rites being done for their dead, and so the Jewish people stopped doing the rites, and asked all Jews to stop, because they were thought of as offensive.
And, imagine that a Jew was running for president, and some disaffected Jews hacked into Jewish computers against Jewish teachings and entered names in order to increase hatred for Jews and make a “public stink.”
The Mormons do not want to hurt Jewish people, or anyone else….and Jewish people do not want to hurt Mormons. I think it is time to quit falling to pieces over this, and to stop giving Helen and the others involved the attention they are seeking.
>I agree. And, one thing I've noticed, those who hate Mormons, almost always try to justify it by painting Mormons as "intolerant".
I love how you think me thinking you are intolerant means I hate you. It seems like the story of Narcissus isn't taught in Mormon school. This is a great debate tactic. "You disagree with my practices? You HATE me!" No, I think you are unintelligent/ignorant/uneducated. I don't hate you.
>No, Mormons do not believe that having more ordinances performed earns you more goodies in heaven. Unless you count God's approval at us caring about our ancestors.
Then why do it?
>Temple baptisms are not a baptism in the sense that they make the person a Mormon, or baptize them without their consent. The idea is you do the ordinance on behalf of a dead person and the ordinance is then OFFERED to the dead person. If they reject it (and many probably do) – then they aren't a Mormon. Period.
OK, then you don't mind if I donate $5M in your name to planned parenthood, earmarked for abortion. All you have to do is say "I don't want to be mormon, errr, a sponsor of abortion" and we're jolly, right?
>No coercion.
Yes cocercion. You're dishonoring the dead by trying to deputize them into your cult.
>You've totally misrepresented this ordinance in our church.
You've misrepresented reality. What you have to understand is, that when people don't believe in your version of the sky fairy they aren't going to buy the argument that is supported by your version of the sky fairy.
>And for the record – you don't have the right to tell dead people they CAN'T be Mormons if they want to either.
LOL. Case in point.
> Then why do it?
Talk to any Mormon and they say that it's an act of love. They are taught that they can be reunited with their families in the afterlife if they perform the ordinances. For them that's their idea of heaven.
So far I haven't heard of any announcements by their church that all of these baptized dead are now counted as Mormons. Their efforts seem to be harmless. The only problem I have with them is when they baptize others who aren't their ancestors. Those in authority in their church need to stop those overzealous members who are unable or unwilling to follow the spirit of the original practice.
Why do it?
Why do you do anything nice for anyone? If you don't believe what we believe then that's fine. But we do believe that baptism and the other ordinances of the Gospel are things that people need in order to receive the greatest blessings in the afterlife and be able to return to God's presence, and so for those people we care about, with our responsibility being on our family, we do this work on their behalf. So that they may be blessed, not us. You know, the same way you might give to the poor or volunteer somewhere, because you want to help others?
Coercion & Consent:
I'd actually disagree with the person who first posted. This is very much like a living baptism, because someone can get baptized and never come to Church again. The fact that they were ever baptized never negates their free will to act as they choose, even including a decision to reject the Gospel.
And you can donate all the money you want in any name you like. I know what I have and have not done so I'll have a clear conscience. The only way it might bother me if I was a public figure, in which case I'd still rather just go to PP's records to expose you as the donor, rather than seek any sort of injuction to stop you from throwing away your money. Even then, this is still a bit more substantive than proxy ordinances should be in the eyes of a non-believer.
Misinterpreting reality:
If we are then it's all the more reason for you not to care. I believe I'm engaged in doing something good for people, but if you don't believe in my religion then I'm just shouting out random peoples' names while dunking someone else in a pool in a basement, and putting a check on paper with that name saying I did that. It's meaningless. To be upset by this is akin to me getting upset that somebody at one of the botanicas on 2nd Ave made a Voodoo doll of me that they're sticking pins in and dunking in water. Unless I believe it has some kind of power it should be meaningless, and it is.
>If they reject it (and many probably do)
And you know this how, exactly? You wouldn't care to cite some statistics as to how many reject it?
>And for the record – you don't have the right to tell dead people they CAN'T be Mormons if they want to either.
Again, how do YOU know what dead people desire? Once people are dead, they're dead. Their souls may still exist, but how dare you think that you know whether a (dead) (person) (soul) wants to become Mormon? Has it occurred to you or those who have educated you that perhaps souls don't have religions, or if they do, might not be the same as those in the current, physical world? Has it occurred to you that souls are outside time? Perhaps they don't know about the existence of Mormonism?
How can a live (in the common sense) human being presume to know, with certainty, any concrete fact about the existence of anything after death?
Many people have had glimpses into the afterlife. Plus God reveals many things to his righteous servants. How dare you dispute what other people know to be fact. Just because you are clueless doesn''t mean others don't know. Your logic is suspect.
I hedged my logic to account for the good number of people who know for a fact that the soul does not exist, that God does not exist, that religion is merely a construct of either our genetics or our colossal brain size, that life began with lightning zapping a bunch of amino acids together to eventually create self-replicating structures, RNA, single-celled organisms, all the way up to us, and that we are really an accident. (The last bit has been proved pretty well by molecular evolution.)
See http://bostonglobe.com/opinion/2012/02/29/mormon-…
and http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/baptism-for…
Mike Wazowski…. My thoughts exactly!
If you're dead and can't consent (obviously) to a baptism, or anything for that matter, then it should NOT be done. Period. Although the intentions may be "good," who's to say what's nice for those without a voice and what isn't?
I was raised mormon, am now an atheist, all religion is bull shit. However, this article does misrepresent the facts on how, who, why and how many times this is done. Also, members are not just out doing this themselves. It is carefully controlled by the church leaders. Now, what they are doing behind closed doors will always remain a mystery. Of course, I do not condone it, but then again, it is just a lot of hokum and in the end, who really cares? As with all religions, if it makes them feel better, go for it. Just don't ask me to join you, don't judge me when I don't and NEVER run any government with its principles (like THAT'S ever going to stop). However, the church should definitely respect the wishes of those who opt out for themselves and their family.
Lastly, if you think baptism for the dead is an issue, you should look into the BULK of what they are doing in the temple. Baptism is NOTHING compared to the bizarre and frankly insane rituals of ‘washing and anointing’ and ‘the endowment’. Truly disturbing.
What you don't understand is disturbing as is your "religion". I suspect you are one of those who reject religion so you can justify your sins.
"Mormons" (members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) baptize the living for the dead because of Jesus' statement, "Except a man be born of water and of the spirit [baptism], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5) and the practice of the early Christians of baptizing the dead (1 Corinthians 15:29). I strongly disagree with the statement that no one knows anything about the existence or nature of the after-life. The Bible, the Book of Mormon, and revelations given to Joseph Smith teach us an incredible amount about the after-life. Further, I believe that all of us will know a lot more about religious truth after we die, so that those who have been involved in one religion during their life, for example, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, persons born before Jesus Christ, etc., may choose to accept the baptism that has been performed for them and become Christians. Of course, no Mormon believes that baptism for a dead person automatically makes them a Christian or a Mormon; the soul of the deceased person still has the choice whether to accept the baptism.
Emily Brooks can't even get the name of the church right. It is the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints. Not the Church of Latter Day Saints.
I'm sorry she is nauseated about what she doesn't understand.
Can you tell me one thing? What other religion tries to provide the saving ordinace of baptism for all of God's children? Many religions believe that only those baptized can be saved. What about those many millions who have never heard of Jesus and have not been baptized? Are they doomed to hell for eternity? And thinking that babies who are not baptized are doomed to hell is way more than nauseating. It is despicable and wrong. No loving God would do that.
Proxy baptisms provides for all of God's children to receive baptism, if they CHOOSE. They don't automatically become Mormons and they have a choice to accept or reject the saving ordinace of baptism.
It is clear that those who are doing this are trying to hurt the Church. They have to hack the system to submit these names. Mormons do not believe in submitting names of unrelated persons.
Here is a brief quote from another article (for the benefit of all those who feel the need to fall to pieces over this):
“Judaism doesn't have a concept of salvation in the way Christianity does, so why should it matter to those who died (or their living relatives) that the Mormons are honoring them in their own way.”
http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/capitol/mormons_bap…
"As a Jew…America’s response to the Holocaust, notes that Mormon leaders were outspoken supporters of efforts to rescue Jews from Nazi Europe at a time when many mainstream Christians were silent….most renowned Mormons of his day — strongly backed legislation that could have saved Anne Frank and her family.
Outraged by proxy baptisms? Count me out. As my stunted family tree attests, the Jewish people have very real, very dangerous enemies. Mormons undergoing peaceful rituals in their own temples aren’t on the list.
http://bostonglobe.com/opinion/2012/02/29/mormon-…
Generally speaking, religious rites for the deceased are acts of love, and God knows our world could use more of those.
I think that the fact that people are getting a little carried away with taking offense at things they don't understand only encourages Helen who is trying to blackmail the LDS Church (for 30,000). http://www.jewishjournal.com/jews_and_mormons/ite…
Baptism for the deceased is an ancient Christian practice (for almost 400 years), and many Christians still practice rituals for the deceased. I understand that Jews have also, in times past, and presently offer certain prayers. I hope that Jewish people understand that the Mormons I know would be honored if Jews were to perform rites for them. That goes for anyone with good intentions, Muslim, Catholic, Buddhist etc.
I love all and hope we can all be friends, under one God (even atheists can be friends under God ; ))
Rites for the deceased are intended as acts of love, to seal families, but when someone intentionally goes against Church teachings on a sensitive issue it hurts all of us.
I'm sorry this person has done this.
Also, I hope everyone understands that there are many people out there who delight in stirring bad feelings against Mormons (often gays trained by anti-Mormons, and those on the religious edges). Those who hate us have intentionally misrepresented the purposes of rites for deceased persons. These rites are meant to turn the hearts of the Fathers and Mothers to the children, as Malachi taught.
Please understand:
1 Mormons are opposed to the Baptism of anyone who is not an ancestor to a Mormon.
2 Mormons do not believe that Holocaust victims are suffering in Hell or purgatory and that Baptism, like indulgences for the deceased, helps reduce their suffering. Mormons understand that all will be rewarded according to their works. No kind, good person will ever suffer in the next life, regardless of religious affiliation.
God is just, and good people will not suffer punishment in the next life.
>Generally speaking, religious rites for the deceased are acts of love, and God knows our world could use more of those.
No they're not; their at best acts of narcissim and at worst 'spiritual attacks' on the victims.
>I think that the fact that people are getting a little carried away with taking offense at things they don't understand
You're perpetuating the same fallacy. You're rejecting my religious beliefs (that what you are doing is wrong) by asking me, as a hypothetical member of religion X (or an atheist) to accept actions based only on *your* religious beliefs. You are telling me, "no, action X is OK because my religious beliefs say it's OK" … what you are failing to understand is that what people are objecting to is action X, based on their own religious beliefs. You're simply finding another way to assert that your religion is better.
>I hope that Jewish people understand that the Mormons I know would be honored if Jews were to perform rites for them.
And I think the people you are desecrating would hope that you would understand that they don't like it, and don't want you to do it. The difference is, they are respecting your religious beliefs while you are blatantly ignoring yours.
>I love all and hope we can all be friends, under one God (even atheists can be friends under God ; ))
You're disgusting. You are demanding that everyone accept the terms of your beliefs in order to receive your goodwill. I think your religion is a fanatical cult, riddled with disgusting and dehumanizing practices – but you will always have my goodwill, because my good actions aren't based upon the existence of a sky fairy.
>Also, I hope everyone understands that there are many people out there who delight in stirring bad feelings against Mormons (often gays trained by anti-Mormons, and those on the religious edges).
…I had to delete what I originally wrote here. I hope you understand that you aren't going to get much tolerance from people by being intolerant, as you are here.
> Those who hate us have intentionally misrepresented the purposes of rites for deceased persons. These rites are meant to turn the hearts of the Fathers and Mothers to the children, as Malachi taught.
Once again, you are asking me to accept your actions on the basis of your beliefs. If you want me to accept something, you need to either make a logical argument (which you have failed to do, your premises are unprovable so your argument is invalid) or you need to make one which rests on *my* premises. You are repeatedly refusing to do this, because it's not possible. You're being monumentally manipulative and disingenuous, and it's only the fact that you're so *bad* at it that saves you from being truly evil.
>1 Mormons are opposed to the Baptism of anyone who is not an ancestor to a Mormon.
And yet, so far as I know, the church has not moved to strike these names or revert the ceremonies from the register.
>2 Mormons do not believe that Holocaust victims are suffering in Hell or purgatory and that Baptism, like indulgences for the deceased, helps reduce their suffering. Mormons understand that all will be rewarded according to their works. No kind, good person will ever suffer in the next life, regardless of religious affiliation.
God is just, and good people will not suffer punishment in the next life.
Well, at least you came back to the pack at the end.
Since we're talking about Mormon's:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1838_Mormon_War
Aww, why the thumbs down? The only other sources of things I know about Mormons:
1. My gay friends who have left church
2. The episode of South Park
3. Comments from random people claiming to be Mormon on the internet
Surely a historical approach is less biased than these…