As the Director of the University of Houston’s Women’s Resource Center, I was disappointed to read the editorial Fraternities receive too much scrutiny (June 15, 2011) by Marcus Smith.
Smith wrote that when Yale University’s Delta Kappa Epsilon (DKE) fraternity members chanted, “No means yes and yes means anal,” those words should be laughed at or shrugged off or were merely “a simple chant.”
However, advocating rape is not a laughing matter or something to be shrugged off. The words were offensive, hateful, and create a hostile sexual environment that promotes disrespect towards women and creates a climate in which sexual assault is not only tolerated, but encouraged. Words have meaning and consequences.
Instead of holding the fraternity members accountable, Mr. Smith employed two fallacies to cloud the issue: 1) making fraternities the victim instead of acknowledging the pain and trauma of the real victims: women who are sexually assaulted and 2) making the imposed five-year campus ban an indictment of all fraternities, when in reality DKE was the only fraternity involved and the punishment was specific to them.
Instead of defending and minimizing this offensive behavior, Mr. Smith could have done UH a service by strongly condemning the actions of this fraternity and demanding respect for women on this campus and all campuses.
I speak to young fraternity men on campus about the importance of gaining affirmative sexual consent.
Opinions like this that minimize hateful language and violence against women make my work all the more difficult.
Beverly A. McPhail, Ph.D., is the director of the Women’s Resource Center.
you must not be a fan of adult comedy. rape is very common comedy material, along with all the other taboos that you're not supposed to joke about. it sucks when people think joking about something means it's not a big deal or to be taken seriously. it sucks even more that you think we're supposed to cater to those people. can we not joke about cancer lest they think it's a joke and halt all research? or because virtually everyone has lost someone to it? can we not joke about murder? wtf can we joke about? please tell me.
what else shouldn't comedians joke about because idiots might take it the wrong way?
joking about rape doesn't equal advocating it unless you have no understanding of humor like the author
you're insane to say that joking about rape encourages it and this paper is insane to publish that.
you know what makes your work more difficult? alcohol! so get rid of the campus pub, because that's probably making more rapes happen than any joke ever could. oh wait, the school endorses the pub so it would make your job even more difficult if you went against them. best just to criticize students then – we all know the school won't care about that.
thanks for telling guys it's important to get consent before sex. i'm sure a lot of them thought rape was okay. what you really should be telling them is to film all of their sex acts in case they need evidence in court when some chick lies and tries to get him thrown in prison for rape.
"No means yes, and yes means anal." How in the world is this statement NOT advocating rape? And this is what I call the Degradation of Man.
It may have been a joke to the fraternity, but they weren't at a comedy club where they? People didn't pay for tickets to hear them to spout out your so-called "adult comedy." The females of the dormitory didn't plan a program that allowed this to happen IN THEIR DORM did they? First of all, when was it ever okay to joke about rape or take it so lightly? Obviously the young women at Yale had a problem with it too. It's a controversial and very touchy topic in itself, no less the use of it in comedy. So where you got the idea that it's "common" comedy material, I don't know.
In the real world, you need to watch what you say in public. People, by nature, are judgmental. Once you step out of the comfort and privacy of your home, you are under the scrutiny of everyone in your vicinity. And even if you shout "Freedom of Speech!!!!" well, yes. Go ahead and say what you want, but be aware of the consequences and the backlash, not by the law, but by the general public (by the way, these "idiots" as you call them, are the majority of the public). If you've been following recent news, ANYONE is fair game to being criticized for what they say or do.
One very recent example is Tracy Morgan and his anti-gay rant DURING A COMEDY ROUTINE. (Look, you're not even "safe" at a comedy club.) He's been apologizing non-stop for his statements since June 3rd. So even if the government doesn't have the right to shut you up, surely the people do.
comedy can happen outside of comedy clubs. sometimes people have different ideas of comedy, and sometimes it leads to lawsuits. this doesn't mean we should start censoring people for joking about taboo things.
I got the idea from watching a lot of comedy. a quick google search would've enlightened you.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/sep/1…
They say: "You can't joke about rape! Rape is not funny!" I say ____ you! I think it's hilarious, how do you like that? I can PROVE to you that rape is funny! Picture Porky Pig raping Elmer Fudd! Well, why do you think they call him "Porky"? -carlin – possibly the most popular comedian ever.
" the Australian comic Jim Jeffries told me last year, "but you can do a rape joke onstage now and there's not a problem."
lenny bruce, another 'comedian's comedian' was respected for pushing the envelope about what you can and can't say – and thanks to him and people like him we can now listen to people speak on stage the way they do in the real world and don't have to pretend that we are something we aren't. we can talk about all of the sick twisted aspects of our modern society in a way not so Disneyfied (disingenuous.)
rape is bad. so is death and murder and all sorts of things. women just don't seem to view comedy the way men do (hence there being virtually zero funny female comedians) and so rape comedy is an issue i guess. would you feel better if it was a woman joking about raping a man? would that take the edge off?
what if comedians just joked about how ugly people were and how their clothes didn't match? is that more acceptable?
i agree – you do need to watch what you say in public. you shouldn't joke about things that might offend people outside of a comedy club for practical reasons – but not so much for moral reasons.
i don't follow celeb news closely, but i heard about Morgan. my guess is it has more to do with the media's need for sensational stories than what he said.
you're saying because people might get offended we shouldn't joke about anything, even in comedy clubs because Tracy Morgan got in trouble for his routine? you're not responding to my argument – you're just closing your eyes and putting the petal to the metal (which isn't surprising since chicks can't drive well) Just Kidding!!! (I hope you can see some humor in this sexist remark which i really didn't mean but which surely is promoting sexism and oppression of women worldwide. i'm like hitler 2.0.)
🙂
Wow, what a pathetic joke you are!
"i agree – you do need to watch what you say in public. you shouldn't joke about things that might offend people outside of a comedy club for practical reasons – but not so much for moral reasons." OK, fine. So then why did you even bother to respond to Dr. McPhail? She was obviously offended. She said so.
i bothered to respond because i'm not arguing that what they did wasn't reckless or dumb, i'm just saying it wasn't immoral, it wasn't advocating rape, and it wasn't that much different from what Routinely goes on on comedy stages and television shows across the western world.
READ, COMPREHEND, REFLECT and THEN RESPOND. i think this will work out better for you in the future if you follow these steps.
"you're saying because people might get offended we shouldn't joke about anything" Really, Venice Añana said that. Was that in a private conversation you two had? It's sure not in her posted reply to you. I just read it — not there. Maybe you should read it again. You then accuse her of "not responding to [your] argument." Hey — newsflash — you have NO argument.
you're confused. you see, 'say' can mean 'imply' or 'say without saying'.
she was implying that people shouldn't joke about things in her last 2 paragraphs where she said that people get offended and are judgmental and look at what happened to tracy morgan. – what conclusion did you draw from what she said?? people can be offended by anything – and she is saying we should be careful not to offend people lest they get angry. i take that as her saying we shouldn't joke about anything since i know from experience that people can get offended by any joke.
You have what reads as an incredibly angry, ignorant, immature, and misogynistic rant, at times bizarrely couched in an attempt to pass off what appear to be some fairly significant character defects as merely amusing, personal quirks.
"I hope you can see some humor in this sexist remark which i really didn't mean but which surely is promoting sexism and oppression of women worldwide. i'm like hitler 2.0."
Uh… Does UH offer comedy courses? You need some serious lessons…and you need to grow up.
you need to explain what you mean better. this post said nothing of any substance, so there isn't much i can say back unless i want to return your very mature, informed, calm, personal insults against me.
UH itself is a lesson in comedy. just look at the caliber of student we have here. i feel like i'm in middle school. all the nice/smart people went to Austin i'm guessing.
and your attempt at wordiness isn't concealing your mental deficiency.
*sigh* whoa, i'm talking about comedians. i'm equating comedy in a dorm with comedy anywhere else (morally speaking.) it's no more immoral to joke about rape with some co-eds than it is to joke about it on stage – it's just more dangerous.
i generalized like the author did when she said "However, advocating rape is not a laughing matter or something to be shrugged off. The words were offensive, hateful, and create a hostile sexual environment that promotes disrespect towards women and creates a climate in which sexual assault is not only tolerated, but encouraged. Words have meaning and consequences"
'the words' were offensive – not the words in that environment. she's generalizing that joking about rape is advocating it. if you are saying that it's somehow different when comedians do it in a club – i'd like to hear your explanation. i'm guessing it was clear that the students were joking just like it's clear that the comedians are joking. the only difference is the comedians are being paid for it and people are expecting to hear jokes. so these yale chicks not paying for and not expecting jokes means these kids are advocating rape?
what else matters in this situation? it was a disturbance? did they invade the girls' dorms? if so, they should get in trouble for that. if it goes against the school's rules – then that's a policy issue. i'm speaking morally though, as is the author.
and it is 'who's' not 'whose' who's means who is. stay away from conjugation if this confuses you.
and what were you saying about what i was saying about 'idiots'?
Oh Lordy, the PC gestapo is out in force today.
Absolutely HILARIOUS to see someone who associates themselves with women's "rights" calling for restriction of the most fundamental right of all – the right to free expression.
In the words of Mark Twain – "Censorship is telling an adult they can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it."
Sorry your Ph.D. didn't equip you to handle complex ideas and the nuance of the language, Dr. McPhail. Fortunately for humanity, most men and women can handle hearing something stupid and offensive without feeling the need to have someone thrown in jail.
Why is the DC running this letter? Do we seriously need to read something that's so politically remedial as to call for a restriction of free speech? What's next, an article arguing that African Americans aren't intellectually developed enough to vote?
“Congress shall make no law . . . abridging the freedom of speech.” Are there limits on this right of expression? There are. The Constitution does not grant absolute immunity to those who would abuse this freedom to incite violence. In 1942 the United States Supreme Court decided Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire .
Any who do not think that rape is a violent act must have their head in the sand. Whether they meant anything by it or not is inconsequential. Legally speaking if someone in those dorms HAD been raped then that fraternity very well may have been liable.
It boils down to this. The men who are defending these people cannot apparently see the other side. Rape is not something men usually have to worry about outside of prison. There's nothing a sorority can chant walking down the hall to get the same reaction from a group of men. Think though, is this something you would want some kid chanting at your mother or sister?
"Whether they meant anything by it or not is inconsequential. "
No, let us never consider what the meaning of a statement is – only our twisted interperetation of those words.
It seems to me that the discourse in our society got off track when the listener's opinion of what was said became more important that the speaker's intent. For instance, I read your post and see only the call for a fascist dictatorship that restricts all but approved speech. I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume rationality – so I dismiss my first impression, and explore for deeper meaning.
This is the kind of consideration that – for reasons best understood by you; be they incompetent or ignorance – you are failing to give the fraternity.
"The Constitution does not grant absolute immunity to those who would abuse this freedom to incite violence. In 1942 the United States Supreme Court decided Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire . "
The implication that the disgusting Yale chant meets the standard for Clear and Present Danger is absurd. Nice job keeping the rhetoric in line with the discussion.
"Legally speaking if someone in those dorms HAD been raped then that fraternity very well may have been liable. "
This is almost certainly false.
"It boils down to this. "
Wonderful. Another "lesson" we all so richly deserve.
" The men who are defending these people cannot apparently see the other side."
NEVER tell me what is in my mind. It's disgusting.
" Rape is not something men usually have to worry about outside of prison. "
Not only is this factually incorrect (rape of males by women has been on a steady rise, and it is only the sexist culture propagated by 'feminist' groups that insist that only women can be raped that prevents the statistics from showing the great extent of this problem) but it is also completely irrelevant.
" There's nothing a sorority can chant walking down the hall to get the same reaction from a group of men. Think though, is this something you would want some kid chanting at your mother or sister?
The problem with free speech is that it's not about what we "want." It's about having the ability to say what we *need.* So far, no person has come up with a restrictive standard for speech that also allows the necessary discourse to take place.
I'll also say, further, that it is outlandish comments that offend that break new territory. Who, with your 1970's era worldview, are you to decide what is or is not 'appropriate' to be spoken in public?
On behalf of men whose mothers, sisters, and dear friends have actually suffered sexual assault (as opposed to hearing an offensive joke…), I've got to say that I find your entire post offensive. I fail to see the other side? Try spending weeks comforting a woman who's been broken by this terrible crime and then tell me what I "don't see." Try enduring the shame of being part of a sex that willfully commits this crime, and then tosses off horrific rationalizations that *blame the victim* for the inhuman behavior of the man – only to be labelled as some kind of pro-sexual assault activist by people like you.
Is reading your post enraging? By all means. But you are entitled to your ignorance and bigotry. I won't try to stop you. Perhaps you should consider granting these stupid frat boys the same favor?